Origin Records: Three Drummers, One Vision, How Seattle Shaped One of the Most Singular Labels in American Jazz
By Thierry De Clemensat
Seattle:
In the late 1990s, as the city’s jazz scene oscillated between local fervor, creative effervescence, and chronic underfunding, John Bishop launched what would become Origin Records. He was later joined by two other drummers, all three already firmly established on the national scene, breathing life into an artistic venture that mirrored their city itself: bold, independent, and fiercely collaborative.
That is how Origin Records was born, a label that, in nearly three decades, has become one of the most respected names in contemporary jazz.
Their albums are recognizable at first glance, with a distinct, almost architectural visual identity, and their catalog blends established signatures with rising voices. It includes artists such as Michael Dease, Andrew Rathbun, Lucas Pino, and John Gunther, along with a new generation supported through OA2, and a more intimate branch via Origin Classical.
Today, at the helm are:
• John Bishop, founder and graphic designer of the label
• Matt Jorgensen, second-in-command and web designer
• Evan Woodle, director of operations
who was also my first point of contact.
And if I know Origin Records, it’s thanks to a composer I hold in the highest esteem: Anthony Branker, whom I must once again thank here.
THE INTERVIEW
Thierry De Clemensat:
Origin Records is approaching its 30-year mark. Can you take us back to the precise moment when the idea of an independent label founded by three drummers suddenly became the obvious thing to do?
John Bishop : First off Thierry, thanks for the opportunity to talk about all of this!
For the label, it was really not a thought at all, but more just a situation built on a bunch of small factors falling together at once. Being a working drummer, at that point for 20 years, and having dabbled a few years doing computer design for posters, ads, cassette/CD covers, I happened to be working on 3 projects that I was producing, playing on, and getting ready to go to print. The thought of putting a name on them just made sense in the moment. My sister had an art gallery in Oregon that my brother Todd (another drummer and visual artist) or I would play at for first Friday Gallery Walks. She decided after a few years that we should put together a CD that she could sell in the store. Her store’s name was “Provenance,” so I took the English translation, “Origin,” for the label name, and my sister’s birthday was the first catalog number. I used my brother’s paintings as art for all three titles, so there was an instant brand created visually as well as musically. Each project had its own energy and audience too, so there was a nice foundation of awareness, soon topped off with a review in Earshot Magazine a couple months later. Along with covering each album, it played up the angle of a new label in town with its own flavor and vibe. From there, it didn’t take long for friends and musical acquaintances to take notice and ask if they could join the club with their projects.
Much like a music career, you’re looking for action and momentum to pick you up and carry you along. Crafting a label within that environment didn’t feel odd or even special, but just like another job to do to keep things moving forward. That the skillset I was getting together was also of help to other musicians – in a time when CD production was a LOT more involved – there were several angles at work to propel the label forward. That idea of being a service entity for artists is still pretty central to our thoughts of what we do day to day.
As this was developing, I was talking with Matt, who had been my drum student since he was 15 and had taken off for New York to go to school. He was playing drums and working with computers, learning about the internet and email, which was still very new at the time. He had a band that was going to record and he offered to develop a web site for the label if he could get their album made. That was the beginning of that partnership, with him developing his web skills and business and me designing and constructing a functional label infrastructure. With the aftermath of 9/11, Matt decided to move back to Seattle with his wife and that’s when we were able to get things happening more efficiently. We added OA2 Records in 2002, the Ballard Jazz Festival in 2003 and we started publishing the monthly All About Jazz/Seattle newspaper, all while growing the label.
We also were able to bring on a few steady assistants at this point – mostly young musicians and former students of mine, such as Chris Icasiano and for the past 7 years, Evan Woodle. That was a major development for streamlining procedures, but since each were accomplished players in their own right, they’ve brought fresh ideas and a vigor that can be lacking in these rapidly aging drummers!
Was there a triggering event, a rejection, a frustration, or on the contrary, an opportunity, that pushed you to build your own structure?
John Bishop : The music life certainly has its share of each of those feelings and elements, but it can also easily be thought of as moving from small triumph to small triumph, and I think that’s more what I’ve taken from the journey. There are not many jobs where you do what you do and then people clap at you! Taking that for granted or too lightly just doesn’t seem like a good way to approach all this, so my thought has always been to keep moving and keep building, responding to any of those feelings with action. If the point comes where you can’t pay the rent, reassess, but otherwise keep churning.
Thierry De Clemensat:
What role did Seattle’s jazz scene play in that decision? Was it a natural incubator, or a challenging terrain you had to work around?
John Bishop : I hit the ground running when I got to Seattle in 1981 at 22 years old. Rent was very much an issue then, so no options except to get entrenched in many musical scenes. The amount of great, creative local players along with opportunities to play with visiting giants made it a very good place to cobble together a living for those first 20 years. It also set me up with many acquaintances throughout the country, coming from far-reaching musical circles, who provided the bulk of artists for the label through the first 10 years and then quickly expanding by word-of-mouth to the present. In a very real way though, my musical experiences here and the voices of those around me from the ‘80s onward, are central to the sound of the label through today. I’m still responding to many qualities in new projects that resonate with what I grew up with.
Thierry De Clemensat:
Looking back, what do you wish you had known on day one?
John Bishop : Fortunately, learning early on that embracing the process of learning music is *the secret to learning music,* makes us all very used to living the adage “fake it until you make it”! It’s never been about wishing I had all the answers now, but more about how quick can I figure out if I’m on the wrong path and then make the correction. Along that path too, we discovered that a lot of what’s required is just knowledge that any musician who’s been paying attention would pick up. You can see it in the many great labels/clubs/festivals that have been developed by working artists. I think most possess the knowledge bank, it’s just who has the interest, aptitude, and perseverance to follow through, especially in the face of taking focus off of your own music.
Thierry De Clemensat:
Your visual identity is instantly recognizable, somewhat like the ACT label. Album after album, there’s a coherent, almost narrative graphic line. How did this aesthetic take shape? Does the music influence the visual design, or does the reverse ever happen?
John Bishop : Glad to hear that’s a perception! Since I’m designing all the covers, it certainly means the aesthetic is going to be within a certain realm. It’s enough to imply “brand,” but I don’t have the desire to impose a brutalist sort of attitude where I’m trying to make the music fit the design. We’re covering a wide range of music with artists from all different countries and scenes, so I’m looking at it from several points – first is enhancing the music and the album’s narrative, balancing it with the musician’s previous output and what makes sense within their circle. And then looking at the flow of Origin and OA2, how the artists, sounds, colors, subject matter and vibes of the last few months intersects and wanders. My assumption is that if I can convince myself that there’s a storyline, that should be enough that it will make sense to DJs and writers who will be opening the packages month after month. They’re the ones I worry about most as I don’t want to bore them and I’d like for them to want to share the discoveries with their audiences. It definitely centers though around being a musician thumbing through record bins weekly for decades. All the information is there for knowing what works, what creates intrigue and legacy and connection, and all those other things that record lovers get from a well curated label. Reaching for that is the fun part of all of this.
Have you ever considered a complete redesign of your visual identity?
John Bishop : I’m afraid we’re past that point! For one thing, I think I’m playing in the zone of my abilities and how they balance with what I like to look at. And since we’re putting out a LOT of albums every year, I’m just trying to hold on for dear life, and sticking to a process makes that possible.
Thierry De Clemensat:
How do you reconcile the musical diversity of the catalog with this visual unity?
John Bishop : I guess I think about that in a couple of ways. Since the idea of connecting an art/graphic design piece with a collection of sounds and declaring “this is what that sound looks like!”, is a fairly recent human activity, and it’s been very random in execution, I think there’s a lot of leeway for what constitutes a proper framing for any album. Probably the early days of ECM provided the best example of how you can get disparate musical statements to make sense together. The Pat Metheny Group, Art Ensemble of Chicago and Steve Reich all had albums released within months of each other and it all seemed to make sense for their audiences. That’s definitely part of my DNA, and again, if I can convince myself that there’s a storyline that makes sense, probably we’re going to be OK.
Thierry De Clemensat:
Your website lists 350 artists and 725 albums. One also notices that many of them collaborate with one another, leaders here, sidemen elsewhere. Did this collaborative fabric emerge spontaneously, or do you foster it behind the scenes?
John Bishop : We’re more at 870 albums by 400 artists, but who’s counting?! The collaborative spirit is at the heart of all things that musicians do when left to their own devices, so that would be our only contribution there – leave them be to do exactly what they want. What I’m most interested in is whatever a musician I care about is interested in doing at that particular moment. I think there’s an energy that accompanies the act that can’t be faked or painted on. If we do 40 albums in a year and each one has that sort of origin story, I’d believe that they’ll resonate with their audiences when they perform and may be present on the album in some undefinable way. I’ve never had the desire to be a regular project producer where I lead (or accompany) the artist through the process of creating their recording. I’d much rather produce the results of many artists doing their own things and then see how that feels as a collection.
Thierry De Clemensat:
Are these collaborations one of the engines of the label’s longevity?
John Bishop : Central to my thoughts on the label is that I like to see an artist and their label work in tandem to present an artist’s music over the arc of their career. The collaborations they come up with over the years would be a big part of that, and each one of those collaborations opens doors to new musicians and scenes, and I’m all for seeing where that leads. So far so good.
Thierry De Clemensat:
Have there been unexpected musical encounters that shaped Origin’s history?
John Bishop : Many! Not to be annoyingly ambiguous, but I suppose every interaction and development for the label has been a bit of a mystery and surprise. We’re not like most labels who actively search for what fits us musically or geographically and then builds catalog off of that planned trajectory. Every album (except for the ones we’ve produced for ourselves) has come from an artist reaching out to us. When we decide to take something on, the project can very easily lead us into other new relationships, sounds and possibilities. One good example could be: taking on one Chicago project opened a trickle and then the flood gates to now having 50 Chicago artists on the label representing 150 or more albums. Many other friends and colleagues have come from that situation making Chicago quite near and dear to our hearts. Like that situation, the same process happens in cities around the globe to different extents, each providing open-ended possibilities for tomorrow AND 5 years from now.
Thierry De Clemensat:
How do you manage interpersonal dynamics when multiple leaders come together on the same project?
John Bishop : Taking on projects that have already gone through the incubation phase, the assumption is that internal dynamics have been figured out. So far I don’t think I’ve really had any disrupting issues with that kind of thing. Reading people and situations quickly is a good musician skill and hopefully my spidey-sense continues.
Thierry De Clemensat:
Being an independent label in 2025 is no small feat. How have you evolved over the years to stay competitive in an industry in constant flux?
John Bishop : Keep it simple! Would be the motto I suppose. The main problem is dealing with all the noise inflicted on the world by tech behemoths. Since it’s hard to have a relationship with a database, we try to keep that in perspective by avoiding the outrage of the day and focus on our human relationships. There are so many people still in the day-to-day of keeping music moving along, so just filling time working among them clears trails through the carnage. So many of the talking points propagated by tech and propped up (or badly argued against) in social media are shy of being factual of what’s happening on the ground. I suppose though having to explain and work through many of those points regularly with artists keeps our clarity of purpose a little more front and center than it would without such chaos lurking.
Thierry De Clemensat:
How did the shift to streaming transform your economic model?
John Bishop : I’m realizing that all these seemingly straight forward questions just unleash all sorts of thought paths! There’s a line graph out there showing the last 30 years, with the rise of CD sales, then the precipitous drop after Tower went out of business, to downloads flying, soon to be replaced by streaming. Each one of those moments brought the booms and busts that can be imagined. For most of us small players though, it’s just been about keeping in your lane, partnering with people who also can think clearly, and then just serpentine through the wrecked hulks of distributors, labels and careers littering the way. We have to live with streaming, but we definitely didn’t shift to it. It’s a piece of the puzzle and we try to find those few spots where it can simplify some bit of our process so we don’t let them win at everything. A handful of our artists have had very nice success with a tune or two, but monthly revenue for most artists is worth a drip coffee or less. So streaming as an ‘economic model’ for anyone outside of the few massive entertainment conglomerates is a large misnomer. It’s a parasitic model that’s actually going through a transformation itself as it seeks larger profits through data uses outside of music. I’d say it’s highly likely that the streaming graph will be plunging soon enough with the next in line replacing it. Either way, we chug along…
Have you ever considered partnerships with major industry players, or is independence non-negotiable?
John Bishop : I think that’s another game that’s pretty much gone by the wayside. Especially since our interests don’t have much to do with the goals of most in the industry, we would be outside of those thoughts for them anyway, but I haven’t seen much in the way of label consolidations since the ‘90s when the record business infrastructure was more potent. Our focus is on continually building the community of artists, associated artists, radio, press and audiences. Partnerships within that scope are always fun to pursue.
Thierry De Clemensat:
To what extent did the pandemic redefine your priorities or accelerate certain transitions?
John Bishop : With the loss of some great friends and the end of our Jazz Festival, it certainly took its toll, just like it did for everyone else. The desire for musicians to get their work out though didn’t change and might have even taken on a new sense of urgency. I think the idea of getting more of the younger folks up and moving with their stuff seemed important as they lost some vital years of their career take-off zone. Same for the older generation – making sure we document and keep them active after that 2 to 4 years of lost time. Unforeseen though was the amount of creation of performance models, non-profits, clubs and such by musicians trying to figure out next steps. Facilitating that kind of movement any way we could marginally help seemed important, and it’ll be interesting to see what pieces of these new models stick and become a part of the eco-system moving forward.
Thierry De Clemensat:
Your early years were marked by key collaborations: All About Jazz in Philadelphia, Jazz Steps in Seattle, and later the creation of SeattleJazzScene.com. Even today, your communication remains fluid and constant, including with the press. How did you build such an extensive network without it becoming a logistical burden?
John Bishop : Again, glad the perception is such! Back in the days when I was trying to get situated in a new town, I’d just go and hang, trying to meet a few people a night and integrate myself into the scene. All that adds up fast if you follow through and answer inquiries with “YES,” so I took that model straight into the record business. I like people who like jazz, particularly radio and press folk who are normally astute lifetime devotees, so it’s just a matter of connecting. As far as the label goes, I never ask anything of them, I just try to deliver great music and project info that’s easily read, and trust that they’ll use the albums that interest them. I’m still excited when people decide to play or write about a record, and the surprise of them responding well to the unexpected makes a lot of this work worthwhile still. As far as being a logistical burden, there’s a whole lot of the usual promotion process that I’m less worried about than the average label might be, so we’re balancing workload to results and figuring out what flies and what becomes a monetary or time sinkhole. It feels though like interacting with friends in jazz media is always as good as anything for feeling like we’re doing right for the artists and the music.
The great thing about 1997 was that the internet was new and the jazz machine was just barely getting onboard. Michael Ricci at All About Jazz was one of the first who had vision and an aptitude for getting things moving (which has in no way stopped!). We hooked up with him early on as I designed his logo and he worked with a friend in Seattle on doing a newspaper in town. Eventually, we somehow took over doing the paper for 4 years, publishing a 24-page full-size paper every month. The festival started taking up a lot of our time so we later approached the paper as our festival program and published twice a year for another 15 years. Making up for a lack of coverage by local media was a large part of feeling the need to do that, but with our in-house design and computer base, our options were pretty open to trying things as failure wasn’t going to break us. It helped too that Matt and I had a dynamic where we could talk through, argue, agree, and then ultimately figure out we could take on a new project and not hurt ourselves. We were pragmatic yet ready to go in directions we hadn’t thought about before.
Thierry De Clemensat:
Did you at some point need to professionalize your communication to keep pace with your growth?
John Bishop : I usually think of our professionalism when it comes to our communications as “lacking.” I think maybe where we’ve done well is in Matt’s work building a Media Portal for getting files out to media in a clean proprietary package, and in creating the illusion of competence through showing up often enough to imply “we’re here!” I’ve always hoped that we’re perceived as sincere and doing the best we can, and since Evan’s been around there’s definitely been a more consistent voice. One place where I know we excel is that we’ve been going to conferences over the last 25 years and meeting up with people face to face. From IAJE to MIDEM in Cannes, JazzAhead in Bremen and JazzCongress in NY, we usually hit 2 to 4 every year and focus on that and our monthly CD mailings as the center to our media-facing strategy.
Thierry De Clemensat:
How do you sort priorities in a saturated media landscape?
John Bishop : Keep it simple! That theme will rear its little head often… We focus on the people we know in radio and press, and then – returning to the ideas about the artists who come on board – we count on a new artist to have a track record, an audience, and friends in the worlds of clubs, festivals and media. Whether large or small, there’s an energy created from their people and project, and then we assume an energy is lent from us to them as they explain that their album is being inserted into our international network. When we repeat that formula 40 times a year in cities around the world, over many years, the feeling is that it amplifies in many seen and unforeseen ways. That’s the base we work from and then consider airplay, reviews, interviews, traveling, all to be layers that solidify for us over time, which they have. With the noise of social media and all else, it helps to have a few humans here and there that we know we can count on to keep this feeling like a useful endeavor.
Thierry De Clemensat:
How much of your strategy relies on intuition rather than analytic tools?
John Bishop : Oh yes, that’s an easy one! We’re all about intuition, improvisation, and the illusion of competence!
Thierry De Clemensat:
You’ve structured Origin into three labels, Origin Records, OA2, and Origin Classical. What motivated this segmentation, and how do these identities fundamentally differ?
John Bishop : Origin Records was growing very quickly back in the early 2000s and we were concerned about a loss of focus of the sound and the brand as we were trying to help friends get their albums together. As other large labels do, we decided to start a sibling label (OA2) to have another line of recordings going at the same time. The thinking was that if Origin were drifting more mainstream at a certain moment, OA2 could take a left turn and offer an alternate course over the next 4 or 5 albums. Each could develop their own narrative and then we’d have the larger story of how they work together. We could deliver more of the music we wanted and we’re creating an extra talking point for writers. To me, it really is a ‘sibling’ relationship as they’ve both been around through every major step of the label, defining who we are now.
Within the public radio universe, where most jazz stations live, it’s also the main outlet for classical and world music. Having contacts in the jazz radio departments transfers pretty easily to the other genres within those stations, so when the opportunity came up to release an orchestral album, we were able to piece together a plan for it. Chris Walden, a German composer who writes for film and TV in Los Angeles, had done a couple of Grammy-nominated big band records on Origin. When the actor strike happened in 2007, Chris decided to take the time off to compose and record a symphony (yes, no small feat!) and wanted to figure out an outlet for it. That was the impetus for starting the classical imprint, and having a striking Grammy-nominated orchestral work as the first release was a great way to introduce the label. The first three albums were a baroque trumpet ensemble, Walden’s Symphony, and a collection of new works by women for clarinet and piano, so just like with Origin the storyline can’t be planned, we just go where the music takes us.
Thierry De Clemensat:
Is this a way to prevent jazz audiences from being overwhelmed by too wide a range of aesthetics?
John Bishop : That hasn’t ever been a concern. Starting the classical label would have been the closest to that but it was because we had stuff that was indeed classical. The point there was to introduce this to another collection of programmers and create a separate body of work that made sense for them. We still include a few jazz people on those mailings because they occasionally find space for some of our left-of-center classical or World music albums. For the other labels, anything goes! I’m part of the jazz audience and I just listened to Buddy Miles doing “Them Changes,” a couple of Beethoven’s Cello Sonatas, and then “Conference of the Birds.” I trust most jazz folk wander similarly and they’re hard to scare!
Thierry De Clemensat:
Do you foresee this structure evolving in the coming years?
John Bishop : It’s always up to the music and projects and where they take us, but we’ve got at least 100 artists who will be doing their 3rd, 5th or 10th albums, so the general flow of the releases should be recognizable to our listeners.
Thierry De Clemensat:
Have you considered an entity dedicated to digital formats or hybrid projects?
John Bishop : It’s difficult to discuss this subject without sounding a little prickly, but here I go!
The main problem when talking about formats is that the conversation is always instigated by the companies who control the market of their making. In this case it’s tech companies delving into music and it’s their narrative that’s invaded our airspace. I’m sure there are a lot of people who love to get ‘their’ music on demand, but unless they help us pay for the making of the music, their desires mean little. Just like with the sales of baked goods, frisbees, and canned meat, we need to see money in order to keep making our product. Contrary to some other thoughts on this too, there will never be an alternative digital plan that includes a high enough payment to make it make sense. Downloading worked fairly well when Apple had iPods to sell. When streaming services surged ahead, they joined the club resulting in digital revenue dropping 74% over the last 10 years.
I definitely wouldn’t be involved with an exclusively digital distribution system, as there is no economic argument that could be made to even try. I’m not sure what a hybrid model would be beyond what is already in use by most labels – CDs, digital streaming/downloads, vinyl. We, like most other labels, are still focusing on the CD as the base of operations. Streaming, vinyl and whatever else people envision beyond that can be good to be involved with, but they don’t have the infrastructure or revenue streams to support an artist. For me specifically, I like designing CD covers and, knowing how the marketplace treats music in its different forms, I still feel like the CD and the infrastructure it resides in is where any respect and revenue still exists. Considering that selling a handful of CDs on a gig would generate more money than a couple years of streaming for your average jazz record, going all digital is just not a serious alternative to consider.
Thierry De Clemensat:
As you approach your 30th anniversary, how do you envision Origin Records over the next three decades?
John Bishop : The thought has certainly been there about what this could look like beyond the present, but things seem to work out better when we just keep doing what we do and let the situation dictate next steps. So I’ll get back to you about that!